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Navigating the business world when it doesn't align with your values can be challenging. Listen in as anticapitalist coach Lauren Kay Roberts explains how we can run businesses where everyone can thrive while bringing in money and maintaining values.

Lauren Kay Roberts (she/her) is an anticapitalist coach and Certified Trauma Support Specialist who helps folks from messy family backgrounds make an impact as community change agents. Through her group program TAKE UP SPACE and 1:1 offerings, Lauren works with all kinds of change-makers to find their unique role in creating the future we all need to thrive.

Website // Instagram // Change Agent Support Call

The episode:

Katrina Widener: Hello everyone, welcome back to the podcast! It's Katrina, and today I am here with Lauren Kay Roberts. We're going to be talking about a topic today that I'm really excited about, so I hope that you guys are really excited about, which is really just around how to have a money mindset for anti-capitalist business owners. And we'll go into more detail on what that actually means if you're like, "Huh?" But I think that it's something that is really important for us to talk about. Really being able to bridge that gap between how do we participate in a capitalist society as business owners while also maybe not necessarily having our values be super aligned with how that society operates. So I'm really excited to dive into that today. But before we get started Lauren, would you mind quickly doing a little introduction on who you are and what your business is?

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah, I'm so glad to be here! Thank you. Yeah so I'm Lauren, I use she/her pronouns, and before I talk more about what I do, I think it's important to define like anti-capitalist, if that helps people kind of place me and understand we're talking about. So when we're talking about capitalism, it's a system where capital or money profit is at the center rather than people, and so when I talk about anti-capitalist, I'm not anti-business. I run a business, I like making money. I think money is a really powerful tool much like social media, and if it's in the hands of good people who have these kinds of values, it can do a lot of good.

It's tricky because like you said, we're navigating a system that isn't aligned with our values. So how do we exist in it while also dismantling it, while also creating something more beautiful and something where everybody can thrive? So that's what we're talking about. I'm not talking about being anti-money, anti-business. So squaring those two things can be really tricky.

That being said I'm an anti-capitalist coach and facilitator. I help people get their messy family backgrounds, whatever that means to you, and messy cultural conditioning depending on your identities... for me it tends to be around being a woman... out of the way of the community change work that you want to do.

So a lot of my clients are folks who, maybe they have a nine to five but they have an activism world that they're part of or want to be part of. Some people are running for office. And then actually a lot of folks are entrepreneurs and using their business as a way to show up for their values in the world, and that's one thing I get really excited to talk about. I have a group program called Take Up Space. I work one on one with folks who are ready for that, and just getting into action and going with it. We were talking before this, we both always forget to mention our podcast! So I have a podcast called All The Fuck In with my dear friend Tristan Katz. They and I, we talk with each other and then with a lot of really incredible folks about showing up for these values in your work. 

My background is in politics, I worked on Capitol hill. I was a grassroots organizer. I worked on local campaigns, but frankly got kind of chewed up and spit out by democratic party politics. And so I'm moving into coaching work after being a contractor/gig worker for a while, has been really, really gratifying, and it's nice to be in charge of my own life now. 

Katrina Widener: Well thank you so much for that introduction. I feel like I also learned things based off of just like, I didn't know about your background and also it makes so much sense, right? Like I'm like "Uhhuh. Okay. Now I'm connecting the dots. I see how all of this kind of like comes together." So thank you so much for that. My first question was going to be, "Yeah, what is an anti-capitalist business owner?" and so I'm glad that you basically already introduced people to that topic. But like I said beforehand, I really appreciate this approach to business and business coaching around how do we marry this idea of having these social justice/anti-capitalist values and mindset, and really wanting to bring that to the forefront in our businesses, while also continuing to operate within a capitalist society?

We want to make money. We want to support ourselves. We want to pay our bills. We also want to support the issues that we feel so strongly about too! Which I think for me is one of the ways that I'm able to bring those two together. So I know that before we got started recording that we talked about reconciling those two things together, and so I think maybe that's a great place for us to start. How do we really get to the place where we can say, "This is how I feel personally, and this is how my business operates," and how do I bring those together? 

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah. Oh, "it's messy" is the short answer, and it's going to look different for everybody. You know, if there's one thing I've learned from my lovely mentor, Michelle Cassandra Johnson, she's a yoga teacher, author, longtime anti-racism trainer, it's that this work is messy. It's hard and we have to do it anyway. This is dark, but we don't really have a choice if we don't want to go extinct as a species.

Katrina Widener: Yes!

Lauren Kay Roberts: If we want to stop the violence and really like build true communities of people! She has also taught me that multiple truths can coexist. Which gets very tricky, if you are someone who's grown up in this culture. Especially if you struggle with perfectionism, there's a lot of black and white things and like, "This is good. This is bad. This is the right way to do things. This is the wrong." So that's not very helpful. But I hope anyone who is worried about how to do things, a "capital R" right way knows that with support and making anti-capitalism, social justice values, anti-racism, anything that falls into this like dismantling of what's not working in order to build what will work for everybody? It's an ongoing practice. It's not like a one time "flip the switch" and we're going to just do it. So in terms of reconciling the values, I'm actually thinking maybe that's not the best word. But I think it's more like holding those two truths. 

And I think it's like getting comfortable in the discomfort, finding community that holds you accountable to your values, so that you can stay in the practice rather than burning yourself out. So in one tangible example, I'd say a lot of my entrepreneur clients are like, "Well how do I make my pricing accessible?" And one of the best lessons I've learned is that you don't necessarily have to make your time accessible in order for your work to be accessible. So an hour one-on-one with me is going to cost a lot more than... I mean, I put out a free podcast. Some people are Instagram content creators. I'm getting away from that cause it feels like soul sucking to me. But if that's your thing, that's one way your work is already accessible to people.

You can also price things on a sliding scale. Let people choose what they pay. You can work with clients who are from an institution or an organization that has budget and charge them, you know, for projects on a higher level than you would like a community based organization. Maybe use scholarship people that way. So it doesn't have to be an across the board answer for pricing. It's really like, how do you make your mix of offers, your mix of clients, work for you? And the number that you want to get to that's not only going to make your own life better, more comfortable, you know, not just paying your bills but thriving. Cause when I say everyone should thrive, everyone includes us. And allowing you to use your money as a tool for the change that you want to see too. 

Like, I would love one day to be able to write multi thousand dollars checks to candidates I believe in. Of course, within legal limits. 

Katrina Widener: Yes.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Have a monthly donation to mutual aid groups, things like that. What's possible if you stop worrying so much about charging a certain client too much money, when actually they're super excited to pay you, cuz what you do is valuable. There's a lot that can happen. 

Katrina Widener: That makes so much sense, and I'm glad that you brought up the "two things can be true" standpoint.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Right? 

Katrina Widener: Because that's something that I've really started talking about a lot with people, right? Two things can coexist at the same time. It's almost like holding space in recognizing both of those, but seeing how they operate within one another, in a way. I think of for instance, I have a client who, and I think she would be totally fine with us talking about this, but we oftentimes have this conversation around "How do we stand firmly in our businesses and accept the opportunities that come to us?" Whereas we've had these conversations around like, "Well if someone comes to me to hire me, should I be filtering them toward someone who maybe is a little bit less privileged than I am personally as like a white woman living with generational wealth, I rent this whole house for myself, right? We're talking about well, "How can two things be true at the same time?" Where you are filtering work to the people who maybe aren't as privileged as you, but you're also taking care of your own needs. You're also, like you kind of mentioned, allowing everyone to thrive and it's not this like self-flagellation almost in a sense.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yes. That's a good way to take yourself out of the fight. Shame is not a useful social justice tool. And I don't mean that we shouldn't be accountable to our values and that if we mess up, we shouldn't repair it. 

Katrina Widener: Yes.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Right? But like beating ourselves up is not... I mean that's part of the process sometimes of working through shame. But I have found for myself, that's usually going to take me out of the game very quickly and I'm not going to be very effective. That's an interesting scenario too, cuz I've actually struggled with that a little bit recently. The coaching I've received, I have an amazing coach Lena West, and then I have some friends who, you know, we have regular conversations about business. Until I'm like not in a cash crunch every month, which as I'm sure fellow business owners can understand, like sometimes life happens. You get sick, whatever, cash flow gets tricky. I have to be clear on what I need in order to keep my business going, cuz this is what I want to do. And I know my lane. 

Katrina Widener: Yes!

Lauren Kay Roberts: I am working really hard on not taking on projects just because they're there, but because they're actually the right fit and I'm going to do the best work for that person. Sometimes I get tapped to consult on like writing value statements for people and for lack of a better word, like DEI type of stuff. I am trained in like facilitating anti-racism work, things like that. But I always do it with a co-facilitator who is a person of color. Because as a white person, that's not really a space I need to be taking up by myself. What's also true is sometimes if my foot is in the door with one of those clients, and let's say we do a coaching call, I help them find some words. Then what I'm saying is like, "Hey, let me refer you to my friend who does this full time. Like, I can help you with the copy and, you know, getting clear on what you care about. But like beyond an initial stage, you need to be working with someone, ideally a person of color or a team that has people of color, who can help you run with this and really go deep into that practice that we're talking about. Making it beyond just a checkbox.

Katrina Widener: I appreciate that kind of little tidbit too, because I love having these sorts of conversations on the podcast. Because while we also talk about things like launching or writing website copy or whatever it is for business owners, there's always this like undercurrent of "How do we pay attention to what are the things that we are doing?" and these sorts of conversations are always so helpful too. Because I think that people might have these values and not know how to actually implement them in their businesses, right? 

Or there are people who maybe haven't completely woken up yet and are like, "Well I think these are my values, but I don't know fully everything." and even just saying like, "Here are things that we know how to do, and here are things that we don't know how to do. But there are other people out there who know more than I do," is so helpful for everyone listening too, to sort of normalize. But it can also be just as easy, like you're saying if I am referring someone to someone, I can take the time and make sure that they're the best person for that job also. 

Just like what you're saying. Just because you have some training in the anti-capitalist, anti-racism, et cetera world, not every single opportunity is going to be the exact best option for you. We often look at having anti capitalist businesses and thinking that it has to be this huge mission, or it has to be these huge steps we take. When really it can be like a succession of small steps, right? 

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah. 

Katrina Widener: I can do this, and I can do this, and I can do this, and I can do this. And it's... it's almost more helpful than trying to figure out that one big thing to do.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yep. 

Katrina Widener: Because then we're actually taking action. 

Lauren Kay Roberts: Right. 

Katrina Widener: As opposed to just like sitting around, trying to figure out what to do. I hope all of that made sense.

Lauren Kay Roberts: It makes total sense! I mean, I think it comes back to the practice of it. Like the baby steps are the practice and it's a present moment practice. It's tuning in with yourself rather than creating some huge sweeping plan of how you're going to do everything perfectly aligned with your values in your business. It's just start where you are, find some support. I mean, that's important too. Go beyond just like Googling and taking in information, find a coach or a community. Something to belong to, whether it's paid or not, to help you implement as you learn. That I think for me has been totally, I mean pivotal. Without support? I would just sit there in my own head and like lose my mind.

Katrina Widener: Yes! So I'm going to like reign us back in a little bit, because we originally started talking about money mindset too in particular, and how we can really... Yeah. Have these two things be true. Where we are both a business operating in this capitalistic society and how we are also people who have social justice or anti-capitalist values. So when it comes to that money mindset, and it really comes to like standing firm in that, what are some of like the common threads or themes that you see people struggle with and how do they kind of come to a place of peace around that? Or at least closer to a place of peace.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah. Or maybe acceptance?

Katrina Widener: Yes. Yeah.

Lauren Kay Roberts: I always explain this practice of money, mindset work. It's similar to any other practice. Like if you're doing any sort of counter-cultural, uh... practice is the only word I can think of. But you have to be in a constant examination of it and present to it, otherwise the dominant cultural thinking that we've all been conditioned with will take over.

So similar to anti-racism. If you're not in an engaged anti-racism practice, the thinking of white supremacy culture is what comes out of all of us, particularly white folks. So with this money mindset work, if we're not doing it, then capitalism's going to get to work on us and through us. And so one of the lines I hear people say a lot is like "Well I grew up being told that you have to work hard to make money, and that there's dignity in that." And you know, I don't want to take away from what anyone else's values are. Folks certainly don't have to agree with me, but if it were true that working hard meant you'd make money? Some of the most impoverished people in the world work the hardest, like just to get clean water. Just to give birth. Just to survive and do very basic things that we take for granted in the west. Or a lot of us do, I should say, not everybody certainly. So that's one of the mindsets I help people break out of, especially if they're working on an hourly basis for clients. For most projects that just doesn't make sense anymore, with the way that we work these days. The longer you've been doing something you're going to get faster and better at it. It should be a project-based!

Katrina Widener: Yes!

Lauren Kay Roberts: A monthly retainer, you know, something else that's going to break you out of, "Oh, in order to make more money, I have to just work more hours or work harder or hustle harder." That's just not true for most of us. And I'm speaking more to people who like own businesses, of course. Not all of us are in that privileged position, but at least with this crew, we are for the most part. 

Another thing that comes up a lot is like, you know, "Money corrupts people. Money's the root of all evil." I used to say, "Well if you're an asshole without money, you'll be an asshole with money." like Elon Musk? If he's super poor, he's still going to be a douche bag. But "If you're a good person without money, if you become rich? You're going to be a good person with money." That's true to an extent. Although now I amend it to say like, "If you stay in community with people who have your shared values." So as long as you're staying accountable to your community and not like in a little bubble the most elite and wealthy people on the planet? You know, money in your hands does a lot more good than in really extractive people's hands, you know? 

And capitalism is inherently built upon the backs of workers. Extracting from people, underpaying people in order for money to funnel up to just a handful of people at the top. It involves extracting from the planet. That's not what we're doing in this kind of online service based world. So sometimes I have to remind people like selling your offers does not make you a capitalist. Cuz sometimes I think we unconsciously hold ourselves back from even putting offers out there or charging appropriately for them because we're like, "Well I don't want to, you know, bring capitalism into the picture." Those are some common mindset blocks, for lack of a better word, that come up. That, you know, I encourage people to not only sit and journal and try to think about "Where did you first hear that? Was it from your family? Was it from school? Media?" I mean, TV did a number on us as kids. Nowadays I can't imagine growing up with social media. 

And once you kind of identified where it came from, figure out what would the part of you that knows better now say back to that part? Like, okay... money is the root of all evil. Okay well, what I know now to be true is actually greed and shitty people trying to hold on their power? That's where evil comes from, right? So just adding some nuance in your own words so that when you find yourself freaking out or holding back, or you can feel your mindset not working for you? You can go back to those truths that you've come to on your own. That's been really helpful for me.

Katrina Widener: I think that that's also... it sparks this idea for me around like, I know that oftentimes when I work with my clients and we're talking about doing like anti-racist work or trying to make our businesses more accessible overall across all intersections, right? It's really sitting down and thinking about how we want to do this, but also I get so many people being like, "Well I'm afraid that I'm going to get called out. Or like..."

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah.

Katrina Widener: "Rachel Hollis style stuff's going to happen." I really appreciate what you said too about like staying in community and like with people who are within your values. Also not just like a community in general, but staying in community and holding yourself accountable and having other people who will hold you accountable.

But I do think that as you said, like social media has completely changed the game in so many ways, and everything we do is so public. For some reason it feels so much easier for people sometimes to maybe be overt about how they feel about LGBTQIA rights. Or about accessibility as opposed to... maybe also like anti-capitalism work is something that they aren't as familiar with, and that is totally a valid thing. But also anti-racism work! So I'd be interested to see, or to hear what your thoughts are around this idea of, "I want to do this work. I feel like it is so valuable, and yet I'm holding myself back because of this fear. And how can I reach the level of someone like Marie Forleo or Rachel Hollis, right? And be bringing in money while also maintaining my values." and I think that that's almost a different level of what we're talking about. 

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah. And you know, I think the difference... well, let me back up for a second. So first of all, if there's fear around making a mistake, just know that that's normal and that mistakes happen.

The key is how do you be accountable, and community's a big part of that, and how do you repair harm when it happens? I think the reason Rachel Hollis has yet to really bounce back from what happened is she didn't really take accountability. She sort of doubled down and then did one of those like vague listening and learning statements, like it was just peak white feminist bullshit. That's an example of someone not being accountable. Like the Marie Forleos of the world? If you're running what's essentially an MLM, I don't know that you're ever going to be able to be accountable, right? 

So... but those folks aside, for people just running like a business at the 100k level, a little less, maybe even up to like 500k? First of all the stakes are going to look a little different for us, cuz we don't have an audience of millions. If you're investing in support from teachers, coaches, and if there's not money right there right now for that? That's okay, like get books. The anti-racist business book by Trudí LeBrón is incredible. She has a whole coaching school now. My friend Tristan Katz and their partner May Nicholson both of them offer tons of resources, even just for free on Instagram, around trans inclusion. But they do very excessively price trainings. Like when you invest in these trainings and then stay in community with the people you meet in them, with the teachers? It reduces the risk of you fucking up and it teaches you the skills of what to do if and when that happens.

And I mean, and that's why I called my group program Take Up Space. Cause I think in a lot of ways, whatever your identities are, we hold ourselves back from speaking up about what is important to us because we don't want to do it wrong. We worry about hurting somebody. Which comes from a very good place, but some of that is also perfectionism at work on us.

Some of that's that black and white, good/bad binary thinking at work on us. And that's just not helpful. It's not helping us make progress. It's not helping us be intentional and strategic with what we're creating. So yeah, I would say get support. Learn what to do when you mess up, and know it's normal and just be accountable when you do. Like I probably have said 10 things in this podcast that in a year I'll be like, "Oh my God, that is not the language I would've used." I'll go back and correct it. There are early episodes of our podcast where I was using words like "crazy" and "insane", and I've since learned like, "Oh, in like the disability community, that's really ableist." right? So it's just a constant evolution. You gotta be gentle with yourself.

Katrina Widener: Yes, yes. I appreciate that and I think that that's a great message for everyone listening too. I think there's a lot of shame and guilt around anti-capitalism in general and participating within a capitalist society. And there's also like that reminder of, "Yes. You are actively working to dismantle your beliefs, but it's not like a sprint it's a marathon." 

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah. 

Katrina Widener: And the more you know, the more you know. 

Lauren Kay Roberts: Mm-hmm.

Katrina Widener: And you can't know more until you have the time and the energy and the capacity to continue to learn more. It's exactly what we said beforehand, right? A series of small steps, as opposed to like one huge thing. And then it's like, "Okay, boxes checked. I am done. Did that. Got it off my list, and now I can move on with my life." Where it's just like a series of over the course of your whole life learning more and more and more. So...

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah, and honestly like the biggest gifts come from those practices. Even though they're not always fun.

Katrina Widener: Yes. Yes, exactly. Give yourself grace in all areas of life, and continue to take those steps toward it, as opposed to just allowing it. I feel like both in trauma recovery or in anti-capitalist work, or in anything that really fits this metaphor, it's not letting it intimidate you out of taking steps forward.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yes! That's where support and community come in! 

Katrina Widener: Yes! 

Lauren Kay Roberts: We need each other!

Katrina Widener: Yes! Okay, well thank you so much for coming on I really appreciate it. Before we jump off, will you just let everyone know where they can find you afterward, and then I also know that you have been so generous to offer them a free call. So a little bit more information about that as well.

Lauren Kay Roberts: Sure. Yeah, so I offer free 30 minute change agent support calls, and these aren't you know, typical like sales pitch calls. I'm more than happy to share ways I can support you. But it's also, if you have questions that are helpful to talk through on, you know, not the deepest level cause it's 30 minutes. Or if I can help you find the support, the books, whatever that are right for you, I'm happy to do that. 

I'm on Instagram at @laurenkayroberts and Kay is K-A-Y. I always say it's like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer realized the J and his little name stood for Jay. I'm Lauren K-A-Y Roberts on Instagram. That's also my website. And yeah, I don't know if you'll put the link in the show notes for the call, but that's also linked on the website, so yeah!

Katrina Widener: Yes, we will link everything in the show notes. There's full transcriptions so we'll link it in there too. So, yes! Well, thank you so much for coming on. This has been amazing and I really appreciate it. 

Lauren Kay Roberts: Yeah, super fun. Thank you!

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