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When we begin to look at building inclusive practices into our businesses, it can be intimidating to know where and how to start. In this episode, Abbiola Ballah of Phern Education Studios breaks inclusivity and intersectionality down so we can create programs that welcome a diverse community of entrepreneurs.

Phern Education Studios LLC guides hosts through the process of building inclusive practices into their online group experiences with international members. We provide training on inclusion, intersectionality, planning for diverse learning styles, and creating welcoming international environments.

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The episode:

Katrina Widener: Thank you so much for coming back and listening to the podcast. I'm so excited today I have Abbiola Ballah on. She is someone I met through a previous expert, Brooke Monaghan. And we're going to be talking today a little bit about building inclusive practices in your online communities. So thank you so much Abbiola for coming today. 

Abbiola Ballah: It's definitely a pleasure to be here, Katrina. Thanks for having me! 

Katrina Widener: Yeah. So before we dig into the nitty-gritty details, I was wondering if you would take a moment to quickly introduce yourself, and talk about all of the amazing things that you do in your business and outside of your business.

Abbiola Ballah: Sure, no problem. As Katrina said, I'm Abbiola Ballah and I'm the founder and CEO of Phern Education Studios. I'm also an inclusion trainer. So I'm originally from Trinidad and Tobago in the Caribbean for those of you who don't know. And I've been an educator for the past 16 plus years teaching and also designing programs and courses for different high schools, universities, social impact organizations, basically around the world. So in the U.S, Japan, Belize, and in Trinidad. I founded Phern Education Studios last year, and founded this company because I wanted it to be a catalyst for change when it comes to creating inclusive spaces in online communities.

So basically what we do is we guide online coaches and community hosts through the process of building inclusive practices into their business. And we do that through taking more of a holistic look at inclusion and intersectionality, and providing training for you to be able to apply them to your specific situations. Especially those with international members, right? Because online community is open to all that kind of thing. Outside of my business, I am an avid reader. I just checked this morning and I'm at book 112 for the year.

Katrina Widener: Dang girl! 

Abbiola Ballah: I'm also a theater buff. I love me some Broadway and musicals. Love to travel, spent the last 20 plus years living outside of Trinidad. And I love me some Grey's Anatomy, I'm an expert. 

Katrina Widener: We have talked about Grey's Anatomy beforehand, which is amazing. So, I know that a lot of people who are listening are probably like, "Oh, give me those actionable tips of how I can actually start implementing inclusive practices into my community." But I really wanted to take a step back and start maybe from a more holistic place. When it comes to getting started doing inclusive practices, and Abbiola came for everyone listing to group coaching, I'm taking my cues from her. But really identifying the reason why we're doing this, and why is so important to us, and why it's part of our values.

So I was wondering if you would mind explaining why that's so important to start from maybe taking a step back and looking at the big picture, as opposed to just immediately jumping into implementing these practices. 

Abbiola Ballah: Okay. So that was a really good question. I think inclusion has become kind of a trendy thing to do in the online space. And especially with the world that we're living in now where there's so much, so many eyes on us as leaders in our businesses, to show where we stand on certain topics. And because of that, a lot of the times we're ending up scrambling, because we don't want to be left out or we don't want to look like we are not standing for something. And because of that, we tend to jump in before we actually think about, where do we actually stand when it comes to some of these topics. Topics around racism. Around gender discrimination. Around having people from different countries in your group. Around physical disabilities. All the "isms", you know, where do you actually stand and what are your values and what do you want to put out there? So I think it's important for us to start there. Start thinking about it and doing the inner work. Because you can't help somebody else if you really don't know what you stand for and what you want to put out there and what you believe in first. It's difficult. There will be a struggle, right? So that's why I always say, "start with the inner work first". And in the end it ends up going hand in hand, you can't stop the inner work. You have to do both at the same time in tandem. You have to do both if that makes sense.

Katrina Widener: Yeah! I really appreciate that kind of approach too, because I know personally for me I used to get really concerned about, "Oh am I not being active enough being vocal enough? Am I not like sharing enough?" and I would have this kind of internal debate because there would also be a sense of, "Well is it really my place to comment on this in some areas?" Right? There are some things I definitely want to comment on. But if I'm commenting just to comment, what value am I adding to the conversation? And am I speaking because there's something I specifically want to say, or something that I want to hold space for or educate about. And everyone listening to this for the most part knows like I'm a very white privileged woman, right? Is it really always my space to speak? And starting from that place of, "How is this aligned with my values? What is the purpose behind when I'm taking action or when I'm speaking? Is it just so that I look like I'm speaking more? Because that's not the goal here." 

And so that has also been really helpful for me when I've had those moments of like, "What should I say, or when should I say it? When should I contribute to the conversation? When should I amplify the voices of the people around me? Right? It's being able to take that step back and saying, "Well what is the purpose of this?" And if it is just to show that I am speaking, then maybe I take a step back and do that inner work that you're mentioning. And I also find it's easier after doing some of the inner work to know when it is the right time. And it's also kind of impossible after doing the inner work to stay silent in some areas, because it's something that I've worked so hard about. 

Abbiola Ballah: Exactly.

Katrina Widener: Or that I'm so passionate about. 

Abbiola Ballah: Exactly. And that's the difference between being performative and being intentional in what you're doing. Right? Performative being that you're just doing it because you feel like you have to do it, or someone might come after you if you don't do it. Or if you're trying to say all the "right things" and put that in quotes, you know. But by being intentional, you're actually looking at, you know where you stand. You know what you feel. You know what you value. And that is what you're putting out there with confidence. " This is where I stand." And that's when you have that confidence, as you said, to also lift other voices. You know? You're confident to say, "You know what? I really don't know much about this. So here's this person who knows more about this. Please listen to what they have to say about this topic, because I value what they're saying." 

Katrina Widener: Yes. Yes. I think that's so, so very important. Amplifying the voices of the people around us, especially when we are not in that group of people that maybe we're trying to work toward helping, or again, amplifying their voices, I think that's a great example of a step that people can take. Which leads me into the next question, which is just when it comes to actually taking actionable steps toward building out inclusive online communities, where would you say that people even just get started? Cause I'm sure that they're overwhelmed by the idea of it, but it's something they really want to do. 

Abbiola Ballah: Yeah. And I think I always say that inclusion isn't a cookie cutter, one and done, checklist kind of thing for you to do. Right? It's something that's ongoing. It takes work, it takes commitment. And it's also specific to your situation. Cause something that might work in my communities may not work in your communities because we have different types of people. People with different unique identities. And I think that's one of the biggest things that I always tell clients and colleagues and whoever: start thinking about who is in your community? What identities do they have? And also not just looking at it from just their race or their gender, or just those demographics. But looking a little deeper than that and looking at the intersectionality of those identities, right? Intersectionality, meaning people have identities that are both privileged and marginalized. And they intersect, they bring all of that with them into their communities.

So starting there and getting to know people. Know who is in your programs is a good start. And of course I'll get, "But I'm not going to know who's in my program until they get in." And yes, that's true. Right? But that's still where you have to start because how can you make a blanket statement about all these different identities, and then you look at your program and no one there fits any of the qualities that you think that you're making space for. Right? It's kind of like chicken and the egg, which one comes first kind of thing. 

Katrina Widener: Right. It's also I think one of those things where when we take a step back from inclusivity, like when I talk with business owners about their businesses and their marketing, it's always that question of who is your demographic, right? Who's your ideal client? Who is your ideal demographic? Reminds me of that in a way. Because we choose who we market toward. And we choose who our ideal demographic is. And if we are marketing toward a very specific type of person who maybe we maybe don't even want to bring in, then we shift our marketing, right? By sitting down and saying like, "Who is the client that loves to pay me?" For instance, as opposed to "Who is the client who like is struggling to be able to afford me every month?"

That's a huge shift of who you're marketing to, and how your copy is, and what your branding looks like, et cetera, et cetera. And so it makes complete sense to think about it in terms of inclusivity as well then. Am I only marketing toward this one group of people? Am I excluding people in that group? And it's exactly what you said about that chicken and egg situation. It's like who am I bringing in, but also who am I getting in a sense. And how do I build a space that makes sense for those people?

Abbiola Ballah: Yep, exactly. Exactly. I think that's where a lot of people kind of struggle and then they give up. Because, you know, I'll be real about it. They just end up giving up because they're like, "You know what? I can't really figure this out." 

Katrina Widener: Right. RIght. 

Abbiola Ballah: "I'm going to do whenever I'm going to do." That's where that patience comes in. And that's where I always say it's ongoing. Because it takes time and it's not going to be perfect the first time around. So the first time you run a program and you get people in: that's data. You see what's happening, you try things, you have practices. And of course there are some signals you can put out there. And these signals are basically showing people what your values are.

So things like using pronouns and things like having a statement, right? Those are signals. So you have those signals out there showing where you stand. But then as you build, and as you run your programs more and you get to know who's in there, that's when you start building in your practices. So there's a difference between signals and practices, right? Your practices are the trainings. Are the policies, the processes that you're putting in place to create that inclusive environment. It's not going to be perfect and it's never going to be like neat and be able to tie it in a bow. It's never going to be that. And I think that's one of the things I always stress a lot is that "Don't look for this to be easy because not. It's going to be a challenge, but if this is what you value, if this is what you want to stand for, this is the type of community that you want to have? Then you'll put in the work." We always say we do things that we want to do. 

Katrina Widener: Which to tie it back to what we're talking about the very beginning, that's why figuring out why you're doing it and what it's aligned with your values is so important because then it is something that you really feel strongly about, right? It's not something that you're doing just to kind of cross something off the list. Which again, in terms of anything with entrepreneurship, it always feels easier to have someone just be like, "Here's what you should do. Step 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, you do these things, and then all of a sudden you're going to be successful." And it doesn't work that way when it comes to business success either. It's not going to work this way when it comes to inclusivity.

Abbiola Ballah: Yeah. Don't get me started on that one Katrina! 

Katrina Widener: We're not going to be able to be like, "All right. I did the 10 steps on this list and now I'm an inclusive business owner." 

Abbiola Ballah: Yeah. No.

Katrina Widener: I have done a lot of work myself and I know I do not have all the answers. I still know there are things that I do that are mistakes that I make or learning opportunities for myself. I think also kind of shifting it to being curious, right? "Oh, now I get to learn something new about someone else. Or even I get to learn something new about myself, or I get to dive deeper into this topic." Because I know that there's a lot of guilt that people carry or shame and embarrassment around it. And instead being like, "Oh I get to dive more into this topic. I get to learn more about it." And shift that emotion into excitement and curiosity. Again, it aligns more with my values and why I'm doing it as opposed to just being like, "Oh I'm doing this because I'm afraid that I'm going to look a certain way or come off a certain way." 

Abbiola Ballah: Exactly. And you know, as you said, we don't know everything. Even I don't know everything! And they can't be ashamed to say that as an inclusion trainer. I can't say that I know everything there is to know. No, then I would actually be fake. Right? I'm still learning. Right? I'm still learning. I'm still doing the work because you have to. I don't know about all the deep rooted issues that happened over the years in different countries and different contexts around certain things. That's why I read so much. 

Katrina Widener: Right! Yes. As another avid reader I'm right here with you. 

Abbiola Ballah: Because that's part of my values too. In that if I don't know about something I'm open to learning about it, teach me. You know? Teach me, tell me. And that's why I also love teaching because I know what it can give to a person. 

Katrina Widener: I think that's also, to take it back again to something else you said, when we're talking about intersectionality too, it's impossible to know everything because most likely we're not standing in the center of all of these different types of communities or all these different types of identities. And I think that to be the person who is the sole expert on every single different identity it's just, it's not realistic. 

Abbiola Ballah: It's not realistic! And even taking it a little bit further, as you said. Because I am a person of color who grew up in the Caribbean, which is different from a person of color who grew up in the US. Right? So I've had completely different experience with things like racism. With things like white supremacy. With things like that, I have a completely different experience with that than from someone who grew up in the United States. So to say that you can lump all people of color in one bucket, it's again, not realistic right? Because of that intersectionality. Because me being from the Caribbean is going to be a big part of how I see the world. Me living in Japan is a big part. I lived there for 10 years. That is a big part of how I see the world.

Katrina Widener: Yeah. Well Abbiola thank you so much for sharing all of this with us. I want to ask like one final question before we hop off. My last question is just if someone was looking to either further their own education or get started even with their education, what resources would you recommend? What next steps would you recommend they take? Obviously we talked about doing that in our work, but do you have any specific areas you would direct them?

Abbiola Ballah: I would say hit that old Google and start reading up a little bit on intersectionality and what that means. Because I think it's important that people really understand what that means when you look at a person and what that means when you look at yourself. And start to think about what are your intersectional identities and how do you feel in different spaces? So I think that's definitely a good place to start. There is a lot out there on this topic. There is a lot, but I think it's also for you to really figure out for yourself first what your values are, and then start listening to what other people are saying. Because if you're not sure about anything you can kind of get influenced by what others are saying. So I would definitely start with thinking about, "What do I value?" It's as simple as that, "What do I value?" And then go from there. You know, put that into Google. This is what I value, put that into Google. 

Katrina Widener: And I will say once you get started you start seeing opportunities everywhere to learn more, to like discover new article, discover new book that comes up. It's just kind of like, "Oh, but maybe I want to learn about this culture today. Or maybe I wanted to learn about this person's experience." 

Abbiola Ballah: Exactly. It really is. But yeah, so I think that's the biggest piece of advice that I can give right now. And also I would say this is the last thing, it's like giving yourself a little bit of grace when it comes to all of this. Finding a space that you feel comfortable asking the tough questions. That kind of allows you to do that. Because it's important for us to be able to ask those questions in a space where we feel comfortable and we feel safe and that there won't be any judgment there. 

Katrina Widener: Yeah. Which is like exactly what you did when you came to group coaching. 

Abbiola Ballah: Yes!

Katrina Widener: Well thank you again so much for coming on here. I really, really appreciate it. The very last thing I just want to make sure is that everybody who is listening knows where they can find you afterward. 

Abbiola Ballah: Yeah. You can find me on Instagram. That is the best place to find me @pherneducationstudios, Phern with a "p-h-e-r-n" and then Education Studios. Yeah. So you can find me there on Instagram. Feel free to slide into my DMs if you have any questions, I do respond. 

Katrina Widener: All right. Well thank you so much!

Abbiola Ballah: Thank you!

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