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There are a lot of big things that happen when you run a business. There are big decisions, big tasks, and big milestones you want to hit. In this week's episode, brain coach Jocelyn Brady helps us understand how to help our brain and behavior work together to overcome the fear of perfectionism and get motivated to take action toward those big things.

Jocelyn is a brain coach, behavior designer and PLAY SCIENTIST who thrives at the intersection of comedy, storytelling and unravelling the mysteries of the human brain.

Website // Instagram // YouTube // LinkedIn // Brain Reframing Tool

The episode:

Katrina Widener: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Badass Business Squad podcast. I am your host Katrina Widener, and I'm very excited to have Jocelyn Brady on the podcast today. We are going to be diving into how you can make the big things in your business feel really easy, or at least easier, by making them feel smaller and just a lot more fun. I think that this is going to be something that a lot of people are going to get some good insights from. So thank you so much Jocelyn, for coming on today. 

Jocelyn Brady: Thank you so much for having me. I'm like wiggling around in my chair. Here we go. 

Katrina Widener: Yeah, I feel like half the time I'm like nodding along and you can't see me, but I'm going to verbally tell you that I'm nodding along because they get the full picture that way. Okay so before we dive into the topic, I would love it if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to everyone who's listening so they can just get an idea of who you are, what you do, all of that magical goodness. 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah so I'm Jocelyn, also known as "@jocelthem". I am a former narrative strategist for multi-billion dollar brands. So I used to do things like oversee language choices in Super Bowl scripts or CEO talks or really big proposals companies were putting out there. And I realized that I loved brains more than I loved the brands so I got more into that, and now work as a brain coach and behavior designer. 

What is that? What is a brain coach you ask? It's someone who helps you understand how your own brain works better. It's mostly through the lens of your cognition, your emotion, self-regulation, self-awareness, and how that all comes together. So that you get your brain and your behaviors aligned to the things that you really most want to do. Or what I love to say is "Create what you most want before you die". 

Katrina Widener: I love it. That's everything, right? "Create what you love before you die".

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah. 

Katrina Widener: Yeah. So I know before we got started we were talking a little bit about like the topic and what this actually looks like, and so I was wondering if you wouldn't mind just like starting out with letting everyone know why we are approaching doing the big things this way, and even what this... what this even means really. 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah I think you know, we can get really stuck in this "All or nothing, go big or go home," and that can sometimes feel really paralyzing. And all of the things that come with that, the imposter-y feelings, the perfectionism. The ways that we get paralyzed like, "Ugh, if it's not perfect and it's not the dream vision I have, I might as well just give up." Or you know, "Do nothing at all".

So that's like the whole ethos of... and I credit big time BJ Fog, the creator of Tiny Habits. I'm a tiny habits coach as well. And some of the great writers out there, James Clear and Atomic Habits. But the tiny steps are crucial and celebrating along the way, which can feel really weird and uncomfortable. Like, "Why would I celebrate writing one sentence?" Because you did it!

Katrina Widener: Yeah!

Jocelyn Brady: And your brain will feel good and it'll go like, "Ooh, I want to do more of that." So you're creating your own, you know, reward circuitry system and that's the key, right? Like one little thing at a time. It's the whole, "You don't climb the mountain by just leaping up there." And if you've figured that out, tell me. You know? It's just taking it a step at a time and savoring in it and appreciating your progress.

Katrina Widener: Yeah, yeah. I feel like this is something too, when we're talking about the world that we're living in? With Instagram and social media and this like immediate gratification, like instant gratification world we're living in? If we are not giving ourselves the ability to do the small things and get some sort of gratification off of doing the small things? Why would we be motivated to do the small things?

So when you had said that you wanted to talk about this, I was like, "Yes, this makes so much sense to me, and this is something that I think a lot of business owners and creatives could get a lot of use out of and get inspired by." Because it is like... it's really thinking about, "How can we encourage our brains to want to focus on the things that maybe we don't innately get instant gratification out of?"

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah and that's why, you know, the celebration is so key. It's like rewarding yourself along the way. And there's different philosophies on that too. I really like the notion that BJ Fogg has like, "Celebrate every tiny step, when you're at least getting into the habit of it." But if you listen to like Andrew Huberman? One of my favorite neuroscientists, probably everyone knows about him now, Huberman Lab. He talks about, you know, variable rewards, intermittent variable rewards. Which is like gambling. Right? Your brain's like, "Ooh, I don't know what's coming next." So you can play with those for yourself, you know? 

Teddy the Cat: Meow. 

Jocelyn Brady: Like I have a friend who has a... Oh, hello Kitty.

Katrina Widener: Teddy is always in the background of these recordings and he's just like, "Hello. Can I be part of it?"

Jocelyn Brady: "Did you say a reward? Do I get a reward?"

Katrina Widener: He's like, "Did you say treat? Did I... is that what I heard?" 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah. Actually, it just makes me think of like how we train behaviors and how cats are a really good example of recalcitrant learners, or at least from our perspective. Like, "Why would I do that?"

Katrina Widener: Right. 

Jocelyn Brady: Um, so if you think about when your brains being it's most stubborn, it's like the cat who won't come when called. Like, how are you going to coax this creature into thinking this is a great idea? 

Katrina Widener: Yeah. Obviously anyone who's listening, Teddy is like part of my brand. I've had clients who've been like, "I'm going to work with you because you have a black cat and I have a black cat." I'm like, "Great!" But bringing that analogy? That makes so much sense. We often think about ourselves as if we are just maybe stuck in our ways. Or like we have to push past our ways even? Instead of being like, "How can we retrain ourselves? How can we unlearn what we've had beforehand and relearn different ways of being?" and so the cat analogy? I'm just like, "Yes, I'm here for it."

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah! When people say, "It's just the way I am," that really drives me up the wall. It's like, "Okay well then you're just going to prove yourself right. You don't want to change, you want to be that way? Fine." I mean, there are some things that are really difficult to change. All of us have, you know, different wirings, different brains, different bodies, different needs, nutritional needs, sleep needs. And we can't escape the biology. But neuroplasticity and the brain's ability to change is so fascinating. How could you not want to explore that potential and see what behaviors and patterns and ways of thinking are possible for you? To me it's like, "What? No! Don't say it's just the way I am. It's such a block!"

Katrina Widener: Yeah, oh my gosh. The entire time you were talking, again like we were saying beforehand, I'm just sitting here nodding being like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes." And especially when it gets to like, "This is just the way I am." Or even this idea of, "This is how I should be or how I should operate." I do a lot of talking about tapping into how you naturally operate, or what will naturally get you excited. The easiest example is always I'm an extrovert, but if you're an introvert, you aren't going to want to move through the world the same way that I want to move through the world. And it's going to feel more fun for me to do one thing versus more fun for you to do something. 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah.

Katrina Widener: I think that's also a great way to shift into this idea of the importance of play. I know you call yourself a "play scientist", and what that looks like and what that feels like for entrepreneurs who are like, "Well, I started my business to do this thing that maybe I love to do or that I thought I was good at, and then all the business part came in and I got all of these 'shoulds' and I have all of this like, 'I have to do it this way, or I have to do it that way.'" instead of letting it just be fun and be playful. 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah. 

Katrina Widener: So I don't know if you wanted to talk about that for a bit too. 

Jocelyn Brady: Absolutely! I remember... I don't know if it was when you were... I think when you were talking to Hillary Weiss and you're like, "Well I don't read my email. I don't like it, I hate email!"

Katrina Widener: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Jocelyn Brady: I am the same way! It's like I read probably 10% of my inbox. I just can't, and I can't even bring myself to like unsubscribe to everything. I'm like, "Eh. Scroll through whatever. What do I need to see? Hopefully I don't miss it." But there are other modes for me that just make more sense. I work best when I'm pacing, when I can walk and talk, when I can text. I write very long form on my phone. I just, I love that. Some people, that's some people's nightmare, right? And it's finding things that feel good for you that are also a stretch, so you're not just getting complacent or only in your comfort zones. It's kind of experimenting. You know, I was a surfer for a very long time. I grew up in Hawaii. So it's thinking of that, like going into different conditions and riding different kinds of waves and just going out there and doing it again and again and again. You're getting better at what you do and you're still challenged because the conditions are changing. So I don't know if that metaphor quite works, but...

Katrina Widener: No, it definitely does. It's one of those things where like, I think about the difference between something that's maybe scary or uncomfortable, but also feels exhilarating. Or something that's scary or uncomfortable that I also know is like... I'm very open about the fact that I'm in therapy, and so I think about some like new ways of showing up in my life. Where I'm like, "I know that this is aligned with who I want to be, even if it maybe isn't who I am right now in this moment yet."

Jocelyn Brady: Yes. 

Katrina Widener: Versus something that actually is like a full body, "No, I don't want to do that, but I'm forcing myself to anyway."

Jocelyn Brady: Right. 

Katrina Widener: "Because someone else is doing it or my competitors are doing it, or everyone's saying that this is a thing to do, so I'm forcing myself to do it." And I think that if you're cognizant and aware, you can feel the difference in your body of what those different opportunities look like, or feel like I should say.

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah and there's so many of the people out there saying, "You have to have the list and do it this way, and the lead funnel, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Great to learn new things. Great to try them out and then see what twizzles your drink. 

Katrina Widener: Yeah! So I was wondering if you could give kind of like a concrete example. Just because I know that we have some abstract thinkers and more literal thinkers who listen and someone who's like, "Okay, this sounds amazing, and I want my business to feel more playful and I want my business to be something that I am celebrating the tiny things. But how? How does that actually... what does that look like? How does that actually work, right?" Like I was wondering if you wouldn't mind giving an example of that. 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah, I mean for me the go-to easy example because you can see it, is let's say you want to write a book. Could be also any kind of piece of art or thing that has a creative output or product, as it were. So you start with the big, the big "Fuck yeah! This is the coolest thing I can imagine. Magic wand. I have a genie. What is the most beautiful vision of this thing that lights me up that I could possibly imagine?" Great. So now you have that north star, right? And then work backwards from there and go, "If I were the type of person who already had that, what would I be doing today?" those questions to ask yourself. And also, "If I'm working towards that, what would I be doing today?" 

So example. I am actually... I am working with a book coach because it's really hard to force yourself to take your own medicine. But I'm writing a book that I want to be like, hard to categorize and just because it's fun. I think it's fun. It's funny to me. I want to make it for me. Combination of like comic doodle, essay drawings, adventure land through brain time. So the tiny, tiny, tiny step is... it could be write one sentence. It could even just be open the notebook, or open the app, Google doc. Write one post-it note.

Pick up the pencil, if I'm really, really struggling. And then to go, "I did it!" Celebrate! You can clap. You could do a little jump. You could call a friend. It probably is going to feel pretty silly at first. We just get in the habit of celebrating yourself for making those steps and taking that action and making traction.

Katrina Widener: Yes! I also really wanted to call out what you talk about when you talk about celebration. Because I know that there are a lot of people who, when they think of celebrating in their business are like, "Okay, I did this thing. Now I need to go out to dinner. Or now I need to get a bottle of champagne or something," which is great. I have some wedding photographer clients, for instance, that I know after every wedding they open a little bottle of champagne and celebrate at home after every one. And that's amazing. 

But I also really want to call out that it can also just be something that is making you feel good inside. Even if it feels, yeah like you said, silly in the moment. It could be just like, "I'm going to throw on a song that I know can get me like really jiving, and like have a little dance party in your house, right?" For me, sometimes I'm like, "Ooh, I just finished... I don't know... reading the transcript of my podcast and reviewing it, I'm going to now go have five minutes where I'm going to go cuddle with Teddy," right? And just like something that makes me feel good in my body, even more necessarily than like my brain is saying, "This is what a celebration looks like." because it's about the feeling more so than the thing itself in a way. 

Jocelyn Brady: Absolutely! It is 1,000%! Again credit BJ Fogg, he calls it "shine". The feeling of shine. You're beaming, right? Your brain's going like, "Ah, you did the good thing!" Those celebrations, going out to dinner, having champagne, rewarding yourself with a trip or whatever it is that lights you up, are great. Particularly for big milestones and things like that, and you can really practice savoring and reminiscing. Which are also really, really good for, for your brain. The How of Happiness, by the way. Great book that talks about savoring as one of the chapters. 

But if you are trying to wire in a new habit or behavior, that's where that instantaneous celebration... and I think we get confused with the word celebration sometimes. It could be one second, right? 

Katrina Widener: Yeah. 

Jocelyn Brady: And it has to be immediate for your brain to go, "Ah! I'm associating this thing that I just did with this good feeling, and you know, can code it in there." Again, snapping your fingers, giving a clap, dancing to your favorite song in the living room, cuddling with the kitty.

Katrina Widener: Yes! Yes. It makes me think of during the pandemic for a short period of time, I moved in with family. My apartment building got bought out, it's a longer story. But anyway, I was living with my family and if I had a particularly like long work day or I was... at that point in time I was working on launching this podcast. I'd be like, "Oh, I figured out how to edit today! Or putting off writing the intro or outro, and I finally did that thing!" It was always something that I could like go and talk to one of the other members of my family and be like, " I just did this thing!" And then they'd be like, "Oh my gosh, that's so exciting!" And even just this like little exchange of like tooting my own horn and having another person reflect that energy back to me? That's all I needed, right? My body was able to be like, "Okay, cool. I achieved this milestone!"

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah. 

Katrina Widener: Or I feel like so often people just like blow past it, right?

Jocelyn Brady: Oh, I think that's one of the most common things. Yeah, it's like we have this go, go, go overachieve. You know, you measure yourself by your output or productivity or what somebody else is doing. Which are, you know, normal. We are a social creature, so we do look at other people for information about what is out there. But remembering that's all an illusion anyway. People put out there what they want you to see.

So, "Eh, do I want to compare myself to this highly curated image someone spent maybe an hour on for 10 seconds?" Or do I want to go, "Oh, interesting. Good for them. Now I'm going to make something that makes me feel great." Little tiny steps and feeling good about it. 

Katrina Widener: I think that goes in too, with something that we talked about beforehand around not taking yourself too seriously, also. We were talking about this before we got started recording. I can totally see how when you're in that stage of taking yourself too seriously, it's way harder to get into that play mode. Way harder to start celebrating things. 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah, the ego comes along and is like, "Ah! What are people thinking of you? You should be doing these... should, should, should," Right? You put yourself into a little shouldy shithole and you kind go nuts. So you're like, "Now we gotta live up to some weird expectation that somebody else created." And yeah it's like... why? We don't have long really. And maybe... I don't know, I just saw a headline that's like, "90 is going to be the new 40." Whatever, maybe. But it's like, make the most of it! 

I talk about regrets of the dying, or deathbed you thinking about yourself on your deathbed. What is that person really proud of you for doing? 

Katrina Widener: Yeah.

Jocelyn Brady: And the regrets of the dying which are basically like, "I wish I would've been true to myself and not doing what other people expected of me or what I thought other people expected of me. And I wish I had spent more time with friends and laughed and been silly." It's a flash, so enjoy it. And if you are taking yourself too seriously, find something that gets you feeling silly and playful. And for me, I mean people have heard me talk about this a lot, but it's like, dress up in my penguin suit. Or put on a mask and run around. Think of some silly thing. Like if my boyfriend's working in the garage, I might try to think of like, "What's a weird wig or a jiggle, I can just go in there and then run away?" Because it makes us both laugh when you're being ridiculous, and you get more into flow that way. 

Katrina Widener: Yeah. It makes me think of, I have a friend who... actually Melanie Lea, I'm calling her out. She has been on the podcast twice now and she's a close friend of mine. But for a friend's birthday beforehand, she actually went in and put little googly eyes on photos and like little items around their house. Just as like a silly thing of, "Okay, it's your birthday. How many of these like little items with Google eyes can you find by the end of the day?" Just like a little like fun scavenger hunt of sorts that has like no purpose outside of just being playful, just having that feeling. 

On your deathbed no one's going to be like, "So how many sales funnels did you create?" But they might be like, "How many days did you feel really good about the way that you were spending your time, how you were feeling in your body?" Like how many days were you like, I felt really happy in my body today or I could feel that sense of joy in my body I guess. And that doesn't happen nearly as often as... I would love to see the people around me be like, "Oh my gosh, today was so fun. I got this thing done. Can we celebrate for two seconds?" 

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah and really savoring in it rather than just rushing along. Going back to... it might have been on your episode with Melanie, or it's probably a very common topic. But just giving yourself the permission, right? You are allowed to feel good!

Katrina Widener: Yes! 

Jocelyn Brady: You are allowed to play! You're allowed to experience joy! What is the point of fucking life if you don't feel and experience those things? Because there is a lot of hard stuff. People die, people get sick, we get maimed. We see the news which is engineered towards negativity, right? And, and captivating the negativity bias to see what's going on with social media. Politics, blah. So give yourself that permission to go find those things that light you up and make you feel most alive!

Katrina Widener: Yes! I think this is the perfect place to wrap things up because I'm like, "I don't know if there's going to be a stronger message than that for this podcast!" But anyway thank you so much for coming on. This is all so aligned with everything that I deeply believe in and value when it come to life in general. But also like that I would love to see major shifts in entrepreneurship. So thank you so much. For coming on here. Before we completely wrap things up, where can everyone find you if they want to get in your world more, or listen to you talk more, ask any follow up questions, et cetera.

Jocelyn Brady: Yeah, my website is www.jocelynbrady.com and you can also find me on Instagram at @jocelthem, J-O-C-E-L-T-H-E-M. And where else am I? LinkedIn: Jocelyn Brady, YouTube: Jocelyn Brady, Google: Jocelyn Brady. Yeah, and I know we talked about this earlier but I also have a free brain reframer. So it's just kind of a way to look at, "How can you play with your brain? How can you look at something that is making you feel the sticky, icky thoughts that are gross and you're like ew I wish I didn't feel this way? How can you look at those through another lens, another perspective, and seeing the tiny step that you can take when you're looking at the world through that lens?" Oh! www.betterbrainstories.com 

Katrina Widener: Yes! Yes. Okay, perfect! Thank you so much for coming on here, this has been amazing and I really appreciate it. 

Jocelyn Brady: Thank you so much, this is great!

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