Mindset Versus Mental Health in Entrepreneurship

Jun 22

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Mindset is a topic we cover so often as entrepreneurs, yet we rarely speak on how intricately tied it is to our mental health. In this episode, Katrina and marketing mentor Melanie Lea discuss their worries and fears around how slippery the topic of mindset can be -- especially in the unchecked world of business coaching.

Melanie is a Marketing Mentor and Content Coach known for breaking down topics that FEEL super complicated (like selling online and creating content) so more small business owners can feel confident in their marketing strategy. She's allergic to people who take things too seriously, can cry on demand when she sees a spider, and believes there's ALWAYS room for being human in business.

Instagram // Website // Free Weekly Mini Trainings

The episode:

Katrina Widener: Hello everyone it is Katrina back with another episode of the Badass Business Squad podcast. I am incredibly excited to have my close friend Melanie Lea back on the podcast today. Hi Melanie!

Melanie Lea: Hi Katrina!

Katrina Widener: So I invited Melanie back. If you guys listened to her previous episode, it was how to create powerful content that attracts new clients. It's perfect because in that episode she was talking about some ways that you can create content obviously for your social media accounts to really get people excited about your business, and one of the things she was talking about was provocative content. I love that that was something that you talked about because it really calls back to why I invited her to come back today.

Because she posted recently on her Instagram about the difference between mindset and mental health, especially in the entrepreneur world and especially with coaches. Which I was really excited to see her post about. If you go check out the reel there's a ton of conversation in the comments as well. But then it also sparked a really, really interesting conversation between the two of us, just because we're friends and we like to talk and investigate and figure these kinds of things out. I thought that it would be a really great conversation and for everyone listening to kind of hear a little bit about, and maybe get involved in as well. So anyway, very long introduction to say thank you for coming on Melanie, and I'm really excited to dive into this topic of mindset versus mental health and the differences, are there differences, and how coaches are approaching it and all of that kind of really juicy conversation.

Melanie Lea: Thank you for having me Katrina. I just feel like this is such an important conversation to have. In my online circles I don't see this discussion happening very often, but I have talked to a lot of business owners who perhaps don't realize that they're trying to go to a business coach for something that requires more licensed professional therapeutic help. And that was really the motivation behind that Instagram post, that reel that you mentioned. To understand how to help more people make sure that they're not distracting themselves from the help that would actually move them further along in life.

Entrepreneurship just kind of busted me wide open. Things that I didn't even know I needed to know about myself and understand about myself happened because of starting my business, but it hasn't always been appropriate to go to a business coach for those things. I would love to see more and more people having that discernment and that trust in themselves and be able to identify, "Oh, this actually isn't a business need it's a mental health need or a personal development need."

I'm really excited to talk to you about it because you deal so much with mindset in what you do, and I feel like even just talking about, "Here are examples of mindset help and what a business coach can help you with." Those kinds of things need to happen more and more so that people can just get the appropriate help and go to people who can responsibly guide them in what they need.

Katrina Widener: I am so glad that you, cause that was actually gonna be my first question, is "What inspired that post?" So I'm glad that you just went off and read my mind! But I am so glad we're having this conversation today too because for me personally, I am a coach but I also am in therapy. Which I've talked about beforehand publicly.

I one hundred percent agree with everything you were saying which is when you become an entrepreneur, I always tell my clients, you're like forced to take a flashlight and peek into those dirty dusty corners of your mind that honestly we probably wish we didn't have to look at because we've been neglecting them, and maybe we want to unearth and say, "What is back here? What are the things I'm holding on to?" It really forces those things to come out of hiding and for us to take a look at "Who am I? What makes up Katrina? What makes up who I am? What makes up the patterns that I have? What makes up the way that my brain works? What makes up the fears that I have and the things that are holding me back?"

Melanie Lea: How you view the world.

Katrina Widener: Exactly. Exactly. And I think as a coach and as someone who has been coached and someone who interacts with other coaches, there's always a different level of how much consideration someone is taking into the difference between something that could be really past trauma or just different aspects of mental health, anxiety, depression, right?

I mean I don't want to just sit and list everything off, but there are so many aspects of mental health that do affect the way that we do business and the way that we show up as entrepreneurs. But that doesn't mean that it is my job as a coach to one, believe that I can fix those things or two, to maybe insert myself in the process. Or three, something that I know you've talked about that I really love this concept of, "Maybe I don't realize the reason why I'm not taking action in this very strategic business aspect is because of this mental health aspect." And going to see a business coach who's just going to tell you, "We'll push through it or do it anyway."

It's almost like a ball of yarn, but it is two different colors that have been mixed together, and how do you differentiate, which is which? Which I think was kind of the beginning of your conversation. How do you tell the difference? But also making sure that people one, are talking about mental health and entrepreneurship, but also are not putting themselves in the place as coaches of the people who can help with your mental health, if that makes sense. So I'm really glad we're having this conversation.

So in your experience, I know you have worked with some coaches, you're also very open on social media and publicly about also being in therapy and struggling with some mental health issues.

Melanie Lea: Loads of problems.

Katrina Widener: But I'm also kind of curious what your experience has been in the entrepreneur world within this realm as well.

Melanie Lea: My experience is... gosh and you and I have talked about this a decent amount privately. It could be that I just don't need a lot of mindset work. So when I've been in these coaching programs and I'm in this program to learn a skill, to learn strategy, to get better at something. We get on these group calls and I don't learn anything about strategy because we're talking so much about being afraid of everything. So my experience has been a little frustrating because I didn't know I was signing up for something that was going to be so heavily focused. I think that can be hard as a facilitator of a group because you want to acknowledge how someone's feeling and experiencing whatever it is that you're providing in that like coaching container. So I just kind of struggle with it honestly, because it's not that I don't have those scaries, whatever they are.

Katrina Widener: Yeah.

Melanie Lea: It's not that I don't have them it's just that, I don't know, I deal with them privately?

Katrina Widener: I was going to say I feel like, and you can tell me if this reflection seems true to you or not, but maybe you're dealing with them in therapy and on your own and in your private life and then the business coaching life is completely separate. And so you're like, "I've already got this part handled and covered. That's not what I'm coming to you for.

Melanie Lea: Yeah. Not that I necessarily think it's bad or incorrect to have those moments in your coaching programs. I think it's just, I didn't have the correct expectations. So much of this is going to be mindset when I didn't necessarily need it, and that would have helped me make a better decision. If I'm joining a program to learn about Instagram, but then the coaches all of a sudden talking a lot about mindset? I then start to question, "Why are you talking about mindset?" Not that you can't know about Instagram and mindset at the same time, but it's not what I signed up for, I guess.

Katrina Widener: Right! No I know exactly what you're talking about. It's 100% expectations that people are setting. It's interesting cause as a coach, and this is why I love the conversations that we have around this, I can totally see you being like, "Yeah I came for this Instagram class and I want to learn about Instagram, or this Instagram program or course or whatever it is." Whereas I also can see so much on a day-to-day basis of when my clients make the biggest jumps forward, it's because they're stepping into a new version of themselves more than they are changing the strategical aspects of what they're doing.

But I think that's also why this conversation is so important is because it's that very nuanced aspect of like, "What does Katrina mean by stepping into a new version of themselves," versus in the conversation of mindset versus mental health, right? To give everyone a very clear understanding, I'm going to give an example, cause I did a client coaching meeting right before this and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is a perfect example."

Melanie Lea: Awesome.

Katrina Widener: Yes. We were talking about stepping into the CEO mindset as opposed to the solopreneur mindset. Which when I'm thinking about mindset, that has nothing to do with mental health. Whereas a lot of mindset conversations can have things to do with mental health. We were talking about starting to look at his business as "What are the big picture things that I'm doing?" How am I setting up my systems? How am I setting up my processes? How is my business formatted overall?" As opposed to just being in the mindset of someone who's like, "I'm just doing the tasks on a day-to-day basis and getting them done." That's the forest versus the trees, right? You're taking a look at everything as a whole and how it interacts and operates together. Versus I'm taking a zoomed in look at what I'm doing only on a day-to-day basis.

There are so many ways that we as coaches can start to change people's mindsets or the way they're viewing a specific problem without delving into cognitive behavioral therapy. Which is like, "Your mind is thinking in these ways, and I'm going to try to change the way that your mind is thinking." I feel like a lot of the time people might turn to a coach specifically because they're like, "I have imposter syndrome," right? This is something we talk about all the time in entrepreneurship. Imposter syndrome really is just, "I'm an imposter at what I do. Why am I doing this? I'm not whatever the words in your head might be." But that could be from inherent past trauma in your life. I know that I have taken classes as a coach myself. Think about internalized racism. There is an excellent understanding of why imposter syndrome might happen for people of color or other marginalized communities, because there is this internalized, actual oppression and discrimination against them.

And there's so much that when you think of imposter syndrome and how coaches or professionals in the entrepreneur world talk about something as simple as imposter syndrome, without maybe fully understanding all of the background that could lead to that imposter syndrome. That's not my job as a coach to be able to help anyone... I dunno, reprogram trauma, right? How is that me as a business coach's role? But I think also one of the points you were making in the original post is there's these differences that are so nuanced that unless you are thinking critically about it, you could be kind of slapping a bandaid on something or actually possibly doing any even more harm instead of getting to the root of the problem.

Melanie Lea: Yeah, I think that's my biggest concern. A lot of people in the comments, a lot of mindset coaches were coming in and saying, "No they're wildly different." And I'm just like, "How?" I understand one has an official diagnosis by a doctor, but maybe you just haven't gone to a doctor yet because you went to a business coach. So much of mental health can present as mindset. To me it's all this umbrella of how you view yourself, how you view the world, what action you feel like taking because of how you are perceiving yourself in the world. Like to me I still just don't quite understand the difference, and then I don't really understand why a coach should be guiding someone. Because it's an unchecked industry, what if you don't know the person is actually presenting symptoms of PTSD because you don't know what that is because you haven't been trained? So I have more questions than answers, but I'm really trying to struggle through it and even do it publicly here on your podcast, because I just feel like it's so important to at least work through what those answers might be. Because mental health and how you feel about yourself and how you show up in your day to day is just too important.

Katrina Widener: And that's honestly exactly what I wanted to do here, right? Cause I don't have all the answers either. I know how I coach, right? I know how I approach the example I was giving, right? The CEO mindset versus a solopreneur mindset. That's super strategic. We're looking at the big picture of how your business strategy is operating as opposed to the teeny tiny, "I'm stuck in editing on a day-to-day basis," aspect. But there are so many other of these nuanced and venn diagramed and risky similarities that can happen. And as someone who I myself do a lot of internal work. Working on my shadow and my inner child issues, and things from my entire life that really have impacted the way that I operate on a day-to-day basis. I think that when I have had the experiences with coaches that have been the most beneficial, have been when they have sat down and really just given me permission to do things my way, as opposed to the way that everybody else does them. I think of, "Okay Katrina. If you don't like showing up and going live on Instagram, but you love talking to other people and connecting with them. What if you did Instagram lives with other people, right?"

That is one way of saying I have this resistance or maybe fear or something holding me back, but we're approaching it as a coach from a strategic grounded place, as opposed to this, "Well why do you think that you have this fear?" I don't know how other coaches necessarily might answer that, but those have been the most impactful situations that I've been in that really made the biggest difference for my business.

And I think that's also why as a coach, I always am recommending to my clients, figure out if also having a therapist in addition to a business coach is a great thing for you. And sure that might not be great for every single person, but if maybe we are talking about fear and they realize something? Then I can say, "Go take that to your therapist. This is not something that I am able to talk on." And you had it almost where you're like, "I'm working on this mental health aspect in my mental health sphere, and then I'm working on my business aspect of my business sphere." And I'm sure that it's just that intermingling of everything coming up because you have a business, that gets coaches talking about it more often.

Melanie Lea: Yeah, something that feels good for me, as far as coaching goes, is more about problem solving with you. You're not having to figure things out by yourself. Neuroscience is something that's become super trendy to talk about with coaches and mindset.

Katrina Widener: Yeah.

Melanie Lea: And I think that's what is causing panic internally for me, and we even talked about this. We live in Minneapolis here together, we went on a walk a few weeks ago and it's just so easy to regurgitate what you hear from science. And now all of a sudden you are establishing this credibility and building trust around things and becoming this authority in your audience's mind around something that you actually don't intimately understand. You just saw someone else talk about it. Or you read one book, but can't even tell me who the researchers were. It's just so easy to come off really impressive when you start talking about science and data, and that is definitely been causing this panic for me. Cause I'm kind of like, "Oh my gosh, anybody can do this. Anybody can do this, and it's so unchecked." I don't think anybody would intentionally try to be manipulative. I think people try to start learning about things so that they can expand their support and just understand their craft better. I'm not necessarily trying to be critical of intentions, it's more of that impact of what is this doing to the people that you're supposed to be helping? And someone who has started stepping into mentorship over this past year? That's another reason why this has just become so apparent to me, is I'm terrified of getting clients who think I'm going to solve all of their mental problems.

And I know you and I have talked about that where it's like, "Oh. I want healthy clients. I want people who are ready to do the work and show up and feel prepared. Mentally, emotionally, not perfectly, but just they have that capacity." They aren't trying to come to me to help them with mentorship in their business when it's not the most appropriate or what's going to be the most helpful, I guess.

Katrina Widener: No, that makes complete sense. I think a lot of people already know this, but a lot of people don't know this, I'm in process of continuing my Reiki certification. And we were having a conversation about this in my last class and I was thinking of you Melanie, and the conversation we had on that walk. Because we were talking about how so often in all types of businesses, but including in different energy healing modalities, and I'll keep it from getting too woo for everybody. But there's a lot of borrowing, right?

Borrowing concepts, borrowing content. If anyone on here does understand stuff about spirituality, the chakras and Reiki healing, which are generally used hand in hand, come from two different parts of the country. They're actually not internally related whatsoever. They're actually not meant to be used hand in hand, and yet there's so much cultural borrowing. I see it in the entrepreneurship industry with coaches all the time where it's like, "I learned this concept from this coach and I'm going to implement it in my business, even though I haven't done the training behind it, I haven't done the work to create it from the ground up. I don't have the full understanding of this concept, but I'm going to teach it myself." And that can be even something as simple as business marketing strategy, that now someone else is teaching because they took one course on it or whatever it might be.

We were talking about this in terms of energy healing, and I was thinking about the conversation you and I had. Because it is that conversation of, "Well I was in therapy and my therapist mentioned this concept to me, now do I talk about it to other people as if I'm an expert?" Because that's not the way that that's supposed to work. That person has done that research and done that understanding. One thing you mentioned when we were having this conversation, that I really appreciated and we have follow-up conversations on it, is you mentioned you know someone who maybe has a conversation that does talk about mindset in a way that is related to the science. And they just will mention the surveys or the research, and who did that research as a way to kind of signal, "Hey I have done the training in this."

This is one thing for members of my group business coaching. You know I bring in experts who are generally very highly trained in the topics, and if we have a mindset expert I've had people who are past psychologists come in and talk about these aspects. Or people who have done certified trainings on these topics, and they're the ones who are coming in and giving the "mindset education," and that is because the coaching industry is so unregulated. There are some coaches who are just teaching Instagram and call themselves a business coach, and there's some business coaches who are like, "Let me tell you about the way your brain works and shadows and patterning." I mean I feel like a couple of years ago it was all like, "Let's talk about the beliefs that don't serve you, or whatever it is." And now you're right, it is a lot of neuroscience. We had this conversation and I remember being like, "Oh I posted a neuro-science thing, but I did do my research and I did fact check every single thing that was in there." I'm not afraid to second guess myself, but I hope that more people are also unafraid to second guess themselves.

Melanie Lea: You mean like questioning yourself and making sure you're not kind of adding to the confusion?

Katrina Widener: Yeah! Yes, we talk about holding ourselves accountable often now, when it comes to being accessible or being anti-racist or whatever it might be, but there are other areas that we need to be holding ourselves accountable. For me I need to hold myself accountable as a coach, but also as a coachee and say like, "Am I as a coach doing my due diligence for my clients? And as a coachee, am I doing my due diligence for myself?" Not trying to get the quick fixes of, "You're going to help me with my mindset, right?" you're talking about having clients who are... not perfect. I mean, we're never whole and finished. But are doing the work on their own and can come to you from a more grounded, stable place we'll say.

Melanie Lea: Yeah. I'm really excited to work with you, so I booked one of your intensives, and I'm really excited because as we were chatting you asked me, "What are our goals here?" There was a lot of that mental problem solving where I was like, "Oh I'm just thinking of it this way." And you know, we have the benefit of being friends so you deeply know my hesitations and stuff around calling myself a coach because of what we're talking about today. But that's gonna be one of our focuses of the intensive. Those reframes and trying to figure out why I'm having such a hard problem imagining something or fully stepping into something. So I think that's going to be a good self case study for me. Where it's like, "Okay. I was going to Katrina, a mindset coach, around this hang up I'm having," I'm planning to do some assessment after that. Like, "All right. I was going to a coach for mindset. There's obviously a clear divide. I'm going to her instead of my therapist." Like I said right now I have more questions than answers, but I think that'll be really cool to see. Take everything we've been talking about today and seeing it in practice basically.

Katrina Widener: I'm also hoping you'll be able to help me verbalize it a little bit better because it's been so funny. We keep having these conversations like, Oh I came up with the best example!" And she was like, "What is that?" I'm like, "I don't remember."

Melanie Lea: "I forgot. Ha! I forgot but it was really good."

Katrina Widener: Yes, I've been able to tell with my internal... what's the word I'm looking for, like compass maybe? Of what's mental health versus what is mindset? It's been hard for me to verbalize it. It's been really difficult for me to be able to say like, "This is it!" And I've been like, "I know when I see it." Right? And I know where my personal lines are as a coach, so it's also going to be super interesting for me to have you come cause after I'm going to be like, "Is there anything that you thought that I was doing that was too mental health-y?" Cause we have that relationship which is super amazing.

Melanie Lea: Yeah. Perk of working with someone who will be honest with you in both situations!

Katrina Widener: There are people who will be honest with me, but that doesn't mean I necessarily trust their judgment.

Melanie Lea: Yeah, good distinction.

Katrina Widener: I was just so excited when I saw that you had first posted that reel, because I do think that our world would be so much as a whole more healed and more grounded and stable and peaceful and all of the things, if more people did seek out mental health professionals and help. I've had a conversation with a couple people where I'm like, "If I was having recurring headaches, I would go into the doctor and be like, 'Can we run some tests? Can we figure out what's going on?' But if I'm having reoccurring, I dunno, self-doubt or blocks around something. Or inability to move forward or insecurities, why wouldn't I go in and get mental health professional help for that too? It's still my body." And I think a lot of some of the "mindset work" that I do with my clients is also helping them understand the difference between, "You as a person are not what your brain thinks on a day-to-day basis."

And just understanding that there is a separation there. I'm not going to delve into, "Let's change the way your brain works," because that's not what I'm trained in. But I am able to say like, "Just as a reminder, if you think something negatively about yourself, that's not who you are. Who I am in my most insecure, unhappy, anxious, stressed out moments is not the core of who I am as a human being. But we all have those moments, and so getting the assistance and the help around them, I do think is really powerful and really helpful for people, and I just personally wish more people would go do the work on their mental health.

Melanie Lea: Yeah, go get your, self checked out mentally just like you would if you had physical discomfort. "Oh, maybe I need to see what's going on here, the root of it." There is this kind of stigma or barrier or block where it just doesn't feel as natural or necessary to do that when you have mental discomfort or emotional discomfort.

Katrina Widener: Failure or like something to be ashamed of like, "I should be able to just deal with this on my own." Right?

Melanie Lea: Yeah. It's kind of easier to muscle through things mentally.

Katrina Widener: Yes it is.

Melanie Lea: Psych yourself up to do it temporarily and then burn out and then get into this deeper cycle of it.

Katrina Widener: Or like if you have a broken leg, you're not going to be walking on it anyway for the majority of us. But if you are struggling with anxiety, a lot of people will just...

Melanie Lea: Limp around with anxiety.

Katrina Widener: Exactly, exactly! And I think that's a great example of like, as a business coach, I'm not here to coach you on getting rid of your anxiety. It seems like such an obvious thing to say, right?

Melanie Lea: Yeah. But that's the how is it presenting thing? Because...

Katrina Widener: Exactly.

Melanie Lea: You might not be, going back to the freelancer versus CEO mindset, you might be so tuned into the day to day work that your business does, like what you produce for people. Versus the bigger picture like, "How is this organized? How do I operate this business?" So in your example, you gave earlier where you were talking about the CEO versus freelance mindset, where you're focusing on the day to day and just what's right in front of you versus expanding your view.

Maybe you're having anxiety about something, but it's just looking like, "I have to stay busy with client work." Even that example of the ball with two different color strings, and they're just so tangled together. That's why this just feels really important to talk about. Because maybe you're focusing on that day-to-day and don't want to expand how you're operating your business and making sure it's scalable, and you're looking out for yourself because you're using work to distract yourself from a bigger problem. And so to me that's just where things get really, really scary.

And you know, I was even thinking for me, I'm fortunate that I've been in therapy for 20 years. This is very normal for me. I feel really bad for people who going to therapy, talking about their mental health, being upfront and vulnerable and honest about it, that's harder. Because, you know, I grew up with, "It's okay to talk about this. It's okay to not be okay." And I just know everyone doesn't have my experience where it's like, "This is something you known about yourself for two decades." I just know there are a lot of adults walking around starting businesses who just have undiagnosed mental health issues, but they've never known this is what's going on, or this is an option or this is something I should look into and it's okay.

Katrina Widener: Yes. I really appreciate that. Even just overall awareness for people. I haven't been in therapy for 20 years, but the first time I went and saw a therapist I was 14. So it was something that I asked my mom. I was like, "Can I go talk to someone?" And she was like, "Sure if that's what you want." And so it's not something that I personally have ever struggled with being like, "I need help," or like, "I want professional assistance around this." But I also know for myself, a big reason why I waited a long time in between was because it's a struggle to find the right person.

"Who am I going to feel confident or comfortable with? How am I going to figure this out with my insurance company?" Right? There are so many barriers to entry with therapy as well. I want to say to everyone, it's like dating sometimes if the first person isn't the right one, that doesn't mean that therapy is not the right option, it just means that person might not be the right person. But the more people who are thinking critically about how these things might be intertwined or what might be behind something or what might be presenting as something else, the more likely we are to be able to have coaching conversations. Or have entrepreneurs in general, who are able to differentiate between the two for themselves. But also to ask critical questions when they're working with other people, right?

For me as a coach, I work with people in six month contracts. So often I know you pretty well, and I know we have conversations up front. I don't sit down and I'm like, "So do you have anxiety?" But we do have conversations similar to the type of intimate conversations that you might have with a therapist, but not the same conversations you have with a therapist. I'm like, "I need to make this very clear!" But I know a lot of what is going on in these people's minds so that I can say, "This is their role, this is my role in a sense." I think that that's also something to just remind people when they are being coached, to also think critically about these things. But also for all coaches who listen to think critically about these things too.

Have that open conversation. I don't think I have a single client who doesn't also have a therapist at this point of the game because it's stuff I talk about so often, right? And it's stuff that I share very openly with my clients, the importance of it. And I think that even if you and I don't have necessarily the answers or the solution or we're not able to solve the problem necessarily, I do find purpose in sharing it with more and more people, I guess is my point. Raising the question so that people can ask it about themselves at any stage or any role within the entrepreneurship industry.

Melanie Lea: Yeah. Yeah and you know, there's one more thing I kind of want to have as an addendum, which is therapy isn't always the right solution for everyone. So I just want to make that clear. I don't think you either need a business coach or a therapist, because sometimes therapy isn't the right solution for someone. But going to what can be backed up by science basically. I mean, you can get podcasts, you can get books, you can do workshops that scientists and researchers who have studied specific fields that might pertain to what you're dealing with. There are self-paced things you could do, you don't have to go to a therapist. But I still think that can still benefit from that critical thinking and asking yourself, "What is it that I actually need? Is that business support or is it more of how I'm thinking and viewing things and what's keeping me stuck that way?"

Katrina Widener: Yeah, it's a lot of self-awareness is really what it boils down to.

Well thank you so much Melanie for coming on. I feel like we could keep talking about this conversation for a really, really long time. But I hope that it's also something that everyone listening was able to kind of maybe open your minds a little bit, maybe get you started thinking a little bit differently, or also joining in on the conversation, providing your 2 cents.

Melanie Lea: I really wanted to come on here because I'm hoping to hear from more people. Like, "What do you think?" Was there something that struck you and you're like, "No I agree," or "No I disagree." I want to be having these conversations. So thank you for bringing me on here and helping me wrestle through some of this.

Katrina Widener: Yeah! Yeah. I was about to say I feel like we were both pretty open and honest about like, we don't have the answers. We have a lot of questions. We also have two very different perspectives, right? Just from our own experiences. It's something that I think is just going to continue to be an ongoing conversation. So everyone who is listening, please feel free to interact with us and we will be happy to continue this conversation off of the podcast as well. So before we hop off Melanie, if you just want to share with everyone where they can find you afterward.

Melanie Lea: Yeah, so I mostly hang out on Instagram. I'm at @melanieannelea or you can go to www.melanielea.com and see any events that I'm doing. I've got some freebies on the website. I've got a blog with a bunch of marketing and entrepreneurship articles. But mostly I'm hanging out on Instagram, and if you haven't heard of it, I use the close friends feature to deliver weekly mini marketing trainings. So if that's something you're into, make sure to follow along and join there.

Katrina Widener: Yes. Well, thank you so much for coming on, this has been great!

Melanie Lea: Thanks Katrina.